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 Sarah Palin: Statement on the Current Health Care
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Buck
Forum Admin

USA
6602 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2009 :  10:39:40 PM  Show Profile  Visit Buck's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Sarah Palin: Statement on the Current Health Care Debate


And who will suffer the most when they ration care? The sick, the elderly, and the disabled, of course. The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's "death panel" so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their "level of productivity in society," whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil. Read More - Sarah Palin Face Book

While I (think I) get the point this kind of hyperbole is not helpful to her cause and can only hurt her credibility.


Government is too big and too important to be left to the politicians.

silentTRobserver
Frequent Poster

806 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2009 :  09:31:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Isn't this the same Sarah Palin who proved to be the Republican with her finger firmly pressed on the 'open mouth and self destruct' button during the election campaign?

She is patently lacking in intelligence and deplorably uninformed about how universal health care is successfully run with everyone paying into a central pool and everyone having accessibility to the service without additional fees.

Not saying Obama's plan is the right one, but it's finally pointing the train in the right direction, now if we can just get some informed debate and cooler heads we might get somewhere.
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pepa
Obsessed Poster

1650 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2009 :  12:07:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Caribou Barbie yeah there baby.

quote:
"If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons." unknown
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Buck
Forum Admin

USA
6602 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2009 :  12:12:45 PM  Show Profile  Visit Buck's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Isn't this the same Sarah Palin who proved to be the Republican with her finger firmly pressed on the 'open mouth and self destruct' button during the election campaign?

I don't think so. At least no more so then any of the other candidates. She took a beating by the press because they were afraid to leave the momentum she created for the republic ticket unchecked.
quote:
She is patently lacking in intelligence and deplorably uninformed about how universal health care is successfully run with everyone paying into a central pool and everyone having accessibility to the service without additional fees.

The problem with her is not the she lacks intelligence because she does not lack it. And the greater point that she is making is true. I know that no one wants to admit it but there will HAVE to be lines that get drawn in the sand for health care. There is no way any sustainable program will be able to give all benefits to the elderly. Insurance companies do this sort of thing now because in many cases it makes monetary sense. I am not saying it is necessarily right but it does happen. And it will happen under universal health care. To not acknowledge it is foolish because there are real world examples all around us.

I know many intelligent people who agree with her 100%. In most cases I think the belief is rooted in social and or religious beliefs. Either way it is not just a fringe group that believes there is some truth in her fears.
quote:
Not saying Obama's plan is the right one, but it's finally pointing the train in the right direction, now if we can just get some informed debate and cooler heads we might get somewhere.

The problem with this is that those of us who want to debate it get called liars, fear mongers and in some cases racists. And until people on the left admit/acknowledge that a great deal of the anger toward this administration's goals is genuine and deal with it on a real level I am not sure how cooler heads can prevail.


Government is too big and too important to be left to the politicians.
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cuzimrite
Obsessed Poster

1007 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2009 :  12:37:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I still say she is one of the most dangerous people in the country today. She commands, YES COMMANDS, about 27-30% of the Right's base. I know it's hard to believe that, but she does have an extensive following. What's wrong with 27-30%...can you say Ross Perot???

Perot got only 19% in 1992, throwing G. H. W. Bush from office, which gave us Bubba. I'm still paranoid enough to believe that as long as Cheney is alive, there is a possibility that Karl Rove will crawl out of whatever hole he's in, and scare the country into making another huge mistake.

What's worse is that ol' Ross was right about that "suckin' sound".

...and Buck, the problem is that the town hall meetings are being inundated by people with information provided to them that are lies, and/or misinformation. I don't have a problem with debate as long as we can be discussing the real challenges of straightening out the fact that Medicare and Social Security will be bankrupt in less than 10 years, and not spending our valuable time trying to convince the crazies out there that 1) We won't kill Grandma, 2) Federal funds cannot be used to perform abortions, and 3)your shoes are untied.

Edited by - cuzimrite on 08/12/2009 12:39:33 PM
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Buck
Forum Admin

USA
6602 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2009 :  1:01:58 PM  Show Profile  Visit Buck's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Cuz it is your opinion that they are lies and or mis information. The truth is that NOBODY knows what this plan will look like when it gets passed. And even with its passage it is subject to change as time goes on.

In other words. Just because eliminating private health insurers is not explicitly written in this plan does not mean that it is going to happen 5 years from now. For me (or others) to raise a concern is not a lie. It is opinion.

I truly believe that many (not all) supporting this plan look at it as a giant leap into socialism. I also believe that many of them are spreading lies and mis information to say and report otherwise. However I don't believe that they should lose their right to free speech, be subject to a government sanctioned "truth" squad or thought less of, in general.

Their pursuit of happiness is just taking them down a different path then mine has.

And, by the way, if you don't think there will be limits put on end of life care I think you are naive. There is no way any sane program is going to offer unlimited care without taking real factors such as age and general health into consideration.

Also I don't think anyone can be sure that federal funds won't be used for abortion. Why wouldn't they be used? Of course they will throw in the "mother's life" argument but I think it is inevitable even if it is not included in the first draft. Why would it be otherwise?


Government is too big and too important to be left to the politicians.
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Jim
Member

USA
57 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2009 :  5:06:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Whenever one thinks of Socialism, at least according to Marxs From each according to their ability, to each according to their need, he is essentially defining the basic, underlying principle of all insurance. Think about it. Each of us pays a small amount that we can afford, the premium, with the idea that should catastrophe strike, well be paid the benefit, a much larger amount according to our needs. Trying to use the concept of Socialism as an argument against the proposed health care plan is a non-starter. Its there by definition regardless of whether the insurance is auto, home, life or health and matters not a whit whether the insurer is public or private.
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cuzimrite
Obsessed Poster

1007 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2009 :  5:28:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Buck...now pay attention. People go into these meetings/town halls that are provided the wrong information from which they form their opinion. Their only fault is believing in such nonsense as unplugging Grandma, or using federal funds for abortions. The Byrd amendment prohibits (as it has for a long time now) using federal funds for performing abortions.

There is a reason that they say that making laws and sausage are similar, it's not pretty. There are currently 4, yes, four bills in the House now. They do need to take some time to work everything out. That's what they do. With luck, it can be done before the Thanksgiving break.
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Buck
Forum Admin

USA
6602 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2009 :  9:29:03 PM  Show Profile  Visit Buck's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Jim I can choose to buy a house. I can choose to buy and insure a car. Or not. I can choose the car our house I want to own. I can choose where I purchase either from. The bottom line is I have choice. I am not forced to do any of these things by government mandate. I am also not forced to pay for my neighbors house or car by government mandate. That my friend is Liberty.

Now on the other hand and contrary to what Cuz believes I do not believe that I will have a choice when it comes to health care. Nor will I have the freedom to opt out of it. Of course this won't happen in the first year or so but I believe it is absolutely 100% inevitable (maybe even as an unintended consequence but I believe it is going to happen). Involuntary compulsory participation in a state run program that I do not want, support or have any interest in participating in. That my friend is socialism.


Government is too big and too important to be left to the politicians.
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cuzimrite
Obsessed Poster

1007 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2009 :  12:33:59 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's a shame you can't go check other possible homelands so you could keep paying a health insurance company, but since the U. S. is the only country in the industrialized world that doesn't have single payer or universal health care, you'll just have to stay here.
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Jim
Member

USA
57 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2009 :  04:19:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No one is forcing you to own a car, I admit, but if you insure you car (as dictated by Michigan state law) or your home, your premiums may well be used to remimburse your neighbor -- or your worst enemy. As things stand today, you can opt not buy health insurance, but those who carry it are paying higher premiums for the uninsureds who are unable or unwilling to pay for their own hospital and emergency room treatment
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Buck
Forum Admin

USA
6602 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2009 :  1:12:26 PM  Show Profile  Visit Buck's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
President Barack Obama said his grandmother's hip-replacement surgery during the final weeks of her life made him wonder whether expensive procedures for the terminally ill reflect a "sustainable model" for health care.

The president's grandmother, Madelyn Dunham, had a hip replaced after she was diagnosed with cancer, Obama said in an interview with the New York Times magazine that was published today. Dunham, who lived in Honolulu, died at the age of 86 on Nov. 2, 2008, two days before her grandson's election victory.

"I don't know how much that hip replacement cost," Obama said in the interview. "I would have paid out of pocket for that hip replacement just because shes my grandmother."

Obama said "you just get into some very difficult moral issues" when considering whether "to give my grandmother, or everybody else's aging grandparents or parents, a hip replacement when theyre terminally ill.

"That's where I think you just get into some very difficult moral issues," he said in the April 14 interview. "The chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives are accounting for potentially 80 percent of the total health- care bill out here." Read More - Bloomberg

While this is far from an endorsement of death panels (a stupid word) you can get a feel for how some people can carry these words by Obama's to the logical conclusion that Palin and others have warned about.

I didn't even know he had said that but his words are exactly what I have thought for a long time. There is just no way that a sane health care program can provide unlimited health care without regard to the facts about the individual case. However government won't be able to look at each situation's unique circumstances. It will have to create a formula that will cover all situations and it is then that certain types of care will be denied or delayed.


Government is too big and too important to be left to the politicians.
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cuzimrite
Obsessed Poster

1007 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2009 :  2:45:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You mean the way the rat-bastards at the insurance companies do now???
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Buck
Forum Admin

USA
6602 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2009 :  5:31:43 PM  Show Profile  Visit Buck's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yes just like those rat bastards at the insurance compainies do now. I think they are the the second most responsible group for the mess that we are in now. However the problem with equating what the government is going to have to do to what the insurance companies now do is that we currently have choice and options. In a universal system there will be no choice and the number of people who will be forced into the "quality of life" formula is going to be enormously bigger then it is now.

I would much rather see a system where we could bring the poeple with the worst health care options (low income) up to the level of the people with the best health care options (the rich) then a system where we take everybody down to the lowest level, which I believe is where UHC is going to take us.


Government is too big and too important to be left to the politicians.
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tabletop
Frequent Poster

USA
289 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2009 :  5:52:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The questions he posed do need to be considered as they are now by Insurance and medical people involved. The place I differ is when you say Palin and others have come to a logical conclusion. No logic has entered here, the only conclusion is political to stop the success of any change except for the occupant of the White House in 2012.
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Buck
Forum Admin

USA
6602 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2009 :  9:10:23 PM  Show Profile  Visit Buck's Homepage  Reply with Quote
tabletop see my prior comment. Although I don't think there are going to be "death panels" there is going to be a formula to determine whether a person merits additional care. In the end some will suffer and or die without the care they need.

And the fact that you say it happens now within the system we have you must also know that logically, just based on math alone, the number of times it will happen when you add (for the sake of argument only) 47 million more uninsured has to increase. What other logical conclusion can you draw? Do you think that higher demand will translate to more resources?

In other words if you admit it happens now on a small scale what would keep it from happening when the scale becomes monstrously larger?


Government is too big and too important to be left to the politicians.
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